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printing to PDF
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* January 25, 2018, 04:09:32 PM
I'm am evaluating the free version of TurboCAD Pro for MAC, build 1359. I have created a simple part with dimensions. When I try to print the part all I get is the part with no dimensions. I'm trying to print to a PDF file for later printing to paper. I have the part and the dimensions all on one layer. Any clues why the dimensions don't show?

I have attached the part file.

Also, I've seen some other odd behavior with regard to dimensions. If I Select All that seems to select the part and the dimensions. I then Group everything. If I Deselect All that seems to happen and if I again select using the Selection tool (NOT Deep selection) everything seems to be highlighted as though everything is grouped. But, if I try to move the group I find that only the part (and one radius dimension) are moved. All of the other dimensions are left behind. That is not the way a group is supposed to behave. Any explanation?

Also, when the part is moved I get an error message. See attached file:
"Error when moving group.png". This seems to have something to do with the fillet in one corner, the one with the attached dimension. There seems to be no way to recover from this error. Undo does not help. I even got TurboCAD to crash once while trying to recover but I can't document all of the step that led to the crash.
Any idea what is going on with this error? Why would a simple movement of the part lead to a problem with the fillet?

Thanks.

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January 25, 2018, 06:23:28 PM
#1
Looks like I need to open up "my" new V10, I got a "build newer" alarm, with V8,I do know, however, there are some "micro" settings if you have Adobe running= I shifted all my PDF's to Preview as basic defaults ( running on Maverick) and those need to be adjusted if the groups (by themselves) are not showing.One other thing I had done in the past, was just use the group to do the locating, and using the page layout on screen mode to center the print area, then Ungroup all, and print.
 The crashing is very weird, and I believe you have found a big bug!

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* January 26, 2018, 03:08:49 PM
#2
Quote
I have the part and the dimensions all on one layer. Any clues why the dimensions don't show?

I was able to print to pdf with dimensions, perhaps your print setup is not correct?

Quote
I've seen some other odd behavior with regard to dimensions. I

The 2D geometry is missing so the radius dimension gets lost. My workflow is to place the 2D geometry for 3D objects in the Construction layer and dimensions in the Dimension layer. It is a handy way to show/hide these elements as needed.

Enjoy
Mitch

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* January 26, 2018, 04:38:47 PM
#3
Quote
I have the part and the dimensions all on one layer. Any clues why the dimensions don't show?

I was able to print to pdf with dimensions, perhaps your print setup is not correct?

Quote
I've seen some other odd behavior with regard to dimensions. I

The 2D geometry is missing so the radius dimension gets lost. My workflow is to place the 2D geometry for 3D objects in the Construction layer and dimensions in the Dimension layer. It is a handy way to show/hide these elements as needed.

Enjoy
Mitch

I've looked in all of the Print menus and the TurboCAD preferences. I see nothing that mentions printing (or not) of dimensions. I rechecked the layer settings with the Explorer and nothing seems to make any difference. I consistently get no dimensions in the PDF. What settings should I be checking?

What 2D geometry are you referring to? This part was made entirely with solid primitives. Why would a simple move (of something that was supposed to have grouped everything together) cause anything to be missing? If you can explain a little further I would appreciate the help.

Also, any idea why only the part moved and most of the dimensions are not moved, even though everything is supposed to be grouped?

One other thing about the dimensions: I used only Smart Dimensions to create all of the dimensions. But, the Explorer shows that only the radius dimension is actually a Smart Dimension. All of the others are ordinary dimensions. That seems like a bug. If I have used Smart Dimensions to create a dimension it should stay a Smart Dimension. Otherwise confusion and errors could result in a final drawing if the dimension doesn't retain Smart Dimension properties.

The fact that most dimensions are silently changed to non-Smart dimensions may be related in some way to the reason that only the radius dimension moved with the part move. The radius dimension was the only one that retained its Smart properties. But it still seems like some sort of bug that I can move the part without moving all dimensions when they are all grouped.

If it is not possible to group a part and its dimensions, then how does one efficiently move a part with dimensions?

Thanks for your help.



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January 26, 2018, 05:14:20 PM
#4
AhhHaa! dump those smart dimensions- they are more a "temporary" check- use the fixed= H-V- angular etc, dimensions

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* January 27, 2018, 12:26:54 AM
#5

there is nothing in the print menus that turn dimensions on or off. There are ways to hide dimensions if desired but I don't see you doing that. There are several ways to print and you have not stated which way you are trying to print, the basic print option starts with the Print Layout menu. In this menu select Page Setup, then paper size, portrait or landscape, OK. Back in Layout check "Overlay Drawing in Preview", click "Fit to Area" or set a scale, click Align Center. You will want to uncheck "Preserve Annotation sizes", Click OK. Select print, you should see your drawing with dimensions in the preview. You can now print or save as a pdf.

Quote
the Explorer shows that only the radius dimension is actually a Smart Dimension

I don't see this anywhere? Can you take a screen shot of it? I have learned from this that the "Smart Dimension" tool will dimension a radius without 2D geometry. I have always directly selected the radius tool and could only apply it to a 2D radius, thanks.

To the best of my knowledge the smart dimension tool is just another way to apply dimensions without selecting all the different tools. Some tools have options that can only be accessed through the specific tool, but other than that there are no special smart properties.

Quote
If it is not possible to group a part and its dimensions, then how does one efficiently move a part with dimensions?

Select all and moving normally does work. There are some problems with this drawing that I don't entirely understand. For such a simple part, looking at the Entities list shows you sure took the long way around to get there.

Enjoy
Mitch



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* January 29, 2018, 04:12:56 PM
#6
Thanks for the help, Mitch.

I have figured out the secret to getting dimension to disappear. If everything in my drawing is NOT grouped then dimensions appear in the the PDF just fine. But if everything IS grouped then dimensions fail to appear in the PDF. This behavior is very repeatable.  (BTW, you don't need to go all the way to a PDF file. This behavior appears in the preview window of the Print... popup window.)

Perhaps this whole discussion should be moved to the Problems category. Can that even be done?

It doesn't seem that grouping should change the printing behavior, but it does.
This seems like a real bug.

I've explored the group/dimension interaction a little more. If I select just the three dimensions to the left of the part and group them, then just those dimensions are eliminated from the printed version. This seems to be true for any grouping of dimensions. Also, if you select and group the part and any subset of the dimensions (even just one dimension) then the dimensions included in the group are not printed.

I agree that my part is not created in the most efficient way. Given that I'm just evaluating the software as a new product to me, I can't even say what the most efficient way might be. I'll try to create the part in different ways to see if I can figure out what triggers the move error messages and the failure to move the dimensions with the part when they are grouped. It seems like grouping and dimensions don't play well together, at least for this part.

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* January 29, 2018, 04:35:27 PM
#7
I made a simple 2D drawing. Dimensions and grouping seem to work as expected. Everything grouped, part and dimensions, moves together as they should. And grouping does not change printing behavior.

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* January 29, 2018, 05:28:55 PM
#8
More exploration of dimension behavior. It is a little complex.

Case 1: Create a primitive solid cube 1" on a side. From the Top view dimension the cube with simple horizontal and vertical dimensions. Group everything together.
Results: Dimensions disappear from the printed version.  :( Everything grouped together moves as a unit and they all move around the screen together while the group is being moved. :)

Case 2: Create another primitive solid cube 1" on a side. From the Top view dimension the cube with Smart ( :'() dimensions. (I added these dimensions by clicking the mouse when the little guide popup indicates you are on the midpoint of a side.) Group this new cube and its dimensions.
Results: Dimensions disappear from the printed version.  :(  When the group is moved only the cube moves and the dimensions are left behind. But, when the screen is clicked so that the group becomes unselected then the screen is redrawn with the dimensions now moved to the correct positions relative to their cube.  :D

Case 3: Create three primitive solid cubes 1" on a side. Align them and add them together to make an L shaped solid. From the Top view dimension the resulting solid with Smart ( :'() dimensions. Group this solid and its dimensions.
Results:  Dimensions disappear from the printed version.  :(  When the group is moved only the solid moves and the dimensions are left behind and they are permanently left behind.  :( :( Unselected everything does not result in the dimensions being positioned correctly.

Case 4: Using the solid created in Case 3 undo the previous move (CTRL-Z) and ungroup the solid and its dimensions. Then add some additional dimensions to the L-shaped solid using just the simple horizontal and vertical dimension tools. You can leave the Smart dimensions intact. Now group the solid and all of the dimensions (both Smart and simple dimensions).
Result: Dimensions disappear from the printed version.  :(  When the group is moved the Smart dimensions are left behind permanently but the simple dimensions move with the solid.  :(+ :)

Conclusions: 1. Grouping dimensions and solids prevents dimensions from appearing in the printed version in all of these examples.  :( 2. Smart dimensions are seriously broken!  :( :( :( Don't use them, ever. 3. More complex solids become even more broken with respect to dimensions.

Does anyone at TurboCAD see these posting? Do they have any input?


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January 29, 2018, 10:13:13 PM
#9
That is what I said 4 days ago.

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* January 29, 2018, 10:24:54 PM
#10
And you were right.

Was TurboCAD originally a 2D program onto which 3D was added later?

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* January 30, 2018, 02:21:16 PM
#11
I have been able to duplicate your results ln my system. V9 and V10 both behave as you have documented. V6 prints dimensions whether grouped or not and ViaCAD V10 shows grouped dimensions in the Layout preview but not in the print review. I have no idea which version is correct as intended by the developer. I have never noticed this due to having never grouped dimensions. Since you are grouping dimensions in the context of being able to move them with other drawing elements note that this is not necessary, just select all, grab and drag an element and all will follow. This program is associative so just grabbing a part and dragging it will result in its dimensions following it even if the dimensions are not selected. This issue has gone unnoticed because there is no need to group dimensions, at least that's my take on it.

The origins of this program go way back and I believe it was 2D at that time. It has gone through many developers and is currently a product of CSI-Concepts.

Enjoy
Mitch

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